Are direct LED Walls really that good?

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Offline w.mayer

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Are direct LED Walls really that good?
Are direct LED Walls really that good?
« on: Wed October 11, 2017, 08:48:39 AM »
Direct LED Walls are since some time with small pixel pitch at the Market from different Manufacturers.

Leyard show if I remember right in 2015 an first 8K Wall.
When Sony show in 2016 for the first time there direct LED Wall CLED the reaction from people saw it was overwhelming.

Other LED Wall presentation from other manufacturer are also show a very good impressive picture but the Sony was better as all people I talk with report to me.

I will see on in few days the Sony LED Wall in the full 8K version.

I try hard to see it with a normally 4K UHD Disc with HDR and 24P but it looks like this is not possible.

So a bit difficult to say when People was overwhelmed by the picture quality was it be because of the Source Material Quality or the Display Quality or both?
I am sure that  8K 120 Frames top top selected Source Material often in slow motion will have a big impact on Picture Quality or say the other way a 4K UHD Disc in HDR 24P will likely looks less good compare the 8K 120Frame Material that Sony runs with the CLED Demo normally.

This have to take into account when comparing the Sony CLED to other Displays or Projectors Picture Quality and so far I think no one did this.
My guess is that both are right.
The CLED will show a better picture than the best Projectors we have today.
But also the 8K 120P Material that was visible at the demos will have an impact on how good this demo likely looks like.

So I am very happy to finally see it with my own eyes and I am sure after I talk with so many people that saw it already that I will love the picture but the real test will be some day to see it with 4K UHD Disc in HDR and Rec. 2020 at 24P as you only this is the right compare.

I will report in about 2 weeks.




Linkback: http://dci-forum.com/video-walls/23/direct-led-walls-really-good/2364/
« Last Edit: Wed October 11, 2017, 10:04:51 AM by w.mayer »

Offline Peter CINERAMAX

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Re: Are direct LED Walls really that good?
« Reply #1 on: Thu October 12, 2017, 01:22:38 AM »
SONY C-LED (no longer called cledis) showing digital cinema hdr Billy Lynn 120fps  Blows away any projector specially the Christie Stack even with 3D I take the C-LED, ask them to play that clip if u can.

However it is a 10 bit video image so look for that limitation as compared to a dci file on the Thor. What it may lack in color volume is overcompensated by the insane cr.
« Last Edit: Thu October 12, 2017, 02:12:55 AM by Peter CINERAMAX »

Online donaldk

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Are direct LED Walls really that good?
Re: Are direct LED Walls really that good?
« Reply #2 on: Mon October 16, 2017, 05:13:46 AM »
So Sony is back to the old/original name of the technology demonstrator at CES 2012, that was called CLED, no hyphen, and CrystalLed written out. Dropping the Integrated System part of the Accronym.

http://dci-forum.com/hi-end-cinema-home/11/infocomm-sony-launches-new-canvas-led-display-wall/772/msg1678#msg1678

Wolfgang do you have confirmation that its a proper 8K version? Sony has been demonstrating two times 4K, side by side, refering to this as 8K, where as it is only half an 8K video display, missing the top half;-).

Looking forward to your report.
« Last Edit: Mon October 16, 2017, 05:17:46 AM by donaldk »

Offline w.mayer

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Are direct LED Walls really that good?
Re: Are direct LED Walls really that good?
« Reply #3 on: Thu October 26, 2017, 03:41:28 AM »
I was this week in Japan and see there the Sony CLED Wall that so many people report that this is the future of home cinema and Projectors are dead.

The Display was at a show room from Sony Head Quarter in Tokyo beside other fancy items they have shown there.

Unluckily the time to do the demo from original 1.5 hours shrink to 15 Min. so there was not much time to see it.

I saw it only for 2 min. at the beginning of the short tour and at the end for 2 min.
The Display was in a 8k by 2k setup so aspect ratio 3.5:1.
At the beginning I saw 2 Full HD Material 16:9 side by side Videos at the Display at the end some 5 still pictures in Full native 8K 3.5:1 Format shot with the Sony A7R2 and a Sony Zoom Lens.

First the good things.
It was very very bright with infinity cr. so far I can rate with the content I saw.
Colors looks very naturally.

One the disadvantage side I can see the individual panels that had 403x453mm in size especially when the picture becomes dark.
This will be visible no matter how far away you are as the panels are big.
In white areas near full brightness I can see at 0,5 times the picture wide also the gabs between the panels that likely disappear when you are 1 times the picture wide in distance.

But most negative for me was that even the room was relatively dark with only some decent light I can see in dark areas of the picture reflections from the back of the room.
As the display is so bright it light up any room no matter how dark it will be and when you have than in a picture bright and dark areas at the same time at
the screen (and this is very normally) you can see reflections in the dark parts.

The 8K Still images looks good but show potential to looks better.
As I have the same camera this picture was shot I know that there is a top top fix focus Lens need not a zoom lens to show what full 8K can looks like.

It was a surprise after all the positive reports I have hear so far and also surprise me that no one include some guys "that know all” not see or report about it!
Likely because of some selected material this bugs are not visible at shows but in real live they are visible.
I remember later after the Demo that I saw something on YouTube.
This Video show this Display and there was also the panels visible.
I thought this time it’s may a macro blocking artefact from the Video but it was not as I now know.
Sad I have not safe this link so I not can found it easy again.

To have such a Display in a room with a lot of daylight or windows behind will be very problematic I think.

Sad that I cannot see any normally conventional UHD 4K Disc and not any 8K Film Material in HFR with this Display.
That creates questions I have already post and ask about it “why” the people like the picture.
I am sure "one reason" was the special Source material in 8K 120 Frame that for sure looks better than a 4K UHD Disc.

So for me the talking that front Projectors are dead is nonsense.
First this Sony Display is anyway with the price of way over 1.5 Mil. Dollars nothing for 99.99999% of Home cinema user.
And when you see what Picture Quality Sony 4K LCOS Pr. offers for a few thousand Dollars and see what other more expensive Projectors can show Picture Quality wise I am sure that talking today about Projector’s are dead is nonsense at least the next few years.

Online lygren

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Re: Are direct LED Walls really that good?
« Reply #4 on: Thu October 26, 2017, 04:11:56 AM »
Thanks for the comprehensive review Wolfgang! As with most new stuff, a number of people tend to overlook the basics as they are so flabbergasted by the overall performance... I remember Philips had a TV set once that used a very matte surface, but at the cost of light output. Nowadays most TV´s seems to be back to glossyland... ;) A glossy surface is really one of the current main concerns of regular TV output in my opinion, it just takes me out of the action if I can see my own reflection in the TV... ;) The supremely matte reflection made out by a properly "neutral gain" screen in a room that is equipped to handle the reflections is just such a calming and eye-candy´ish experience! Back at my place my TV has been but completely retired, even shows, games or basically anything watchable is now being enjoyed at the downstairs home cinema - OR - of course - on the iPad as for the kids (but they enjoy the cinema room more and more too)...

Still, I´m sure LED walls might and will increase in popularity though, and the gabs will probably be reduced on future generations, but it will probably take time - unless Samsung or LG figures a new, more feasible "home LED"-version faster than anticipated (but probably not, they need to capitalise in their current HUGE factory investments and the smaller players would normally not have the resourced required)...

Meanwhile I agree that placing glossy panels in a very bright room with reflective surface all over the place will cause a lot of headache - so even in these kinds of circumstances one would need to carefully consider reflections. Physics has a tendency of biting one´s arse if forgotten!!   
« Last Edit: Thu October 26, 2017, 04:32:13 AM by lygren »

Online donaldk

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Re: Are direct LED Walls really that good?
« Reply #5 on: Thu October 26, 2017, 04:29:14 AM »
Wolfgang, could you also see the tiles? So the small sections in portrait mode, that make up a module?

Yes, the surface is glossy. At ISE it sometimes showed a brownish spotted surface in the deep black surface material, a bit like good old bakelite could.

Except for the Cinemacon dark room demo, all demo's sofar have been in full ambient light trade show environments. Generally showing bright computer generated content.

As for the white area module edges, I don't remmeber these being noticably worse, bujt perhaps if I review the pictures I took. In going to black/darker area's I could see the tiles, besides the modules. When signal is off it is super obvious the surface area in at least one demo unit was not smooth/even.

Of course projection is not dead yet, given what a simple 750 euro BenQ can do on an 120" screen. But as LCDs get larger and less expensive people are willing to go smaller and forgo the hassle of running wires, hanging projectors, blinds and what not. On the other hand in some markets they are bringing back the two-piece front projection TVs from the 70s.

Online lygren

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Re: Are direct LED Walls really that good?
« Reply #6 on: Thu October 26, 2017, 04:44:26 AM »
For living room setups, I´m sure TV´s and as such later on also LED walls will overtake projectors sooner rather than later - or basically as soon as high quality TV´s go >100" for <3-5000USD (which is bound to happen any time now...). I do not believe in ALR screens either, or two-piece "laser TV´s" for that matter, it´s just too much clutter - even if performance increases at both the screen the projection end... Perhaps with an exemption of ALR in-ceiling and hidden projection setups, this might still be a potential market segment for "stealth" living room setups that wants to have a large screen available. People want simple and clean installations in their living rooms. For the dedicated, custom designed light and reflection controlled home cinemas though, I am, however, quite confident projectors will last much longer as the audio part of that equation is of such significance. Sure, you can design audio surrounding a TV (or a non-AT screen), but it will be harder to do both acoustically and waveguide´ingly... Still, I do want RGB laser projectors @ infinite contrast sooner rather than later though, but if trying to foresee the future - these are typical technological possibilities that are just as likely will appear the next five years or so as more cost efficient and home-friendly LED walls...
« Last Edit: Thu October 26, 2017, 04:49:44 AM by lygren »

Offline Peter CINERAMAX

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Re: Are direct LED Walls really that good?
« Reply #7 on: Thu October 26, 2017, 08:21:32 AM »
Yes I had been wondering about the reflection myself. Alan , Brad and I commented this thing is so bright you don't see the reflections.:D

Meanwhile in Miami Beach Showeast was very small, there was a small suite where Samsung and Harman executives were cutting deals. Because I have been doing some Sherlock Holming for 4 months now trying to buy these things I was invited by NO LESS the SENIOR DIRECTOR HEAD for SAMSUNG DISPLAY for Lunch on Monday.

In my first meeting with GDC The Samsung Cinema Screen  partner i had to pay for the $500 dinner. Here I ate like Mr. Walter Fortmueller ( the most voracious individual in our industry that will sit there for hours comesting):). oysters, ceviches, galore SAMSUNG HAS MONEY.

In addition to having a similar culinary taste hit it off really really well, I would have never thought, certainly not by the engineers from LG I met when i told them oled was acoustically transmissive at ces 2016 (which sony now exploits), I would have never expected such Man Of The World to be in charge of these displays. A Mensch.

Not everything went well in the beginning, i showed him my project and he explained that I could buy the tiles from one of two sources and that I would pay 20% off list, that that was the dealer cost.

I then went off to say that i will NOT SELL A PROJECTOR if you gave me a million dollars Uwe's Thor being my last .
I told him that when i first saw these new led screens in a dark cinema that I immediately imagined what It would look outside of  a dark room on top of a spectacular Miami penthouse. That I always since 1979 had a reference of what I wanted my projected images to be the reason I always used rear projection and Torus and that I have always been extremely dissatisfied every time I use a projection screen, that the center channel behind the screen necessity has been blown out of proportion. And that because I always worked with rear projection solid acrylic optical screens and solid aluminum curved screens and Torus sound concentrating screen and all of those installations when checked by truly great acousticians they end up summarizing it like this: This is not supposed to sound this good, not sure exactly why it sounds this good but there is excellent sounding centre channel, or directional bass, or the 40,60,90,130 degree positioning of the tops or many other things that people called me crazy for doing. God lends a helping hand, to me at least when i break the rules.

So I asked him, do you want to know what the reference HDR Image has been all my life since age 17 growing up in the caribbean? "There is an island called St Thomas, on top of that I island there is a place called Drakes Seat that looks east, you go there on a September and the winds and clouds create a coreography of 14 bit color with rec 2020 and 10,000 nits hdr.

YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN THE GUYS FACE, the smile.

He says: "Only in September You say? " and he nods and pauses ,because You know I travel the world all of the time, next week in asia the following in London, I can vacation anywhere id like, but guess where i have been going on Vacation for 30 septembers in a row?"

He pulls his phone out and shows me close to my face: "Drake's Seat" showed me the pictures of St John all of the places that I consider and Image Reference, that also now happens to be, because he AGREES THAT IS EXACTLY WAS HIS ENGINEERS SHOULD BE HAVING TO RECREATE in Image quality.


Is it a small world or what? Synchronicity has reared it's head.

He said, Peter I like your enthusiasm, I have a special "uncle" in corporate marketing that can make deals happen. He called this top director which I now Call the SAMSUNG GOD, and another very extra LAYER OF DISCOUNT HAS BEEN GIVEN ME . I love it.
« Last Edit: Thu October 26, 2017, 08:39:51 AM by Peter CINERAMAX »

Offline w.mayer

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Are direct LED Walls really that good?
Re: Are direct LED Walls really that good?
« Reply #8 on: Sat October 28, 2017, 03:58:17 AM »
I have hear that Sony is working on the surface to reduce the reflection issue.

I am not sure how this can work as change the black surface for less reflections can likely be a trade of from other things like cr. will go down.
But I am sure this issue can be improved by several changes.
Every glass / air surface kills normally 4% light this means 4% reflections!
To shrink this every Optic from a Projector or Lens had some coating at every glass surface that reduce from 4% down to 0,1 and more when cost is not an issue.
This and other things for sample a blacker black surrounding the very little LED area ( 1%) will help as well.

Sure Sony and other will works on the other issues as well and even today this screen looks fantastic.
I just like to bring this disadvantages up as no one talk about it so far!
Other advantages are huge but this is more or less all today not count much as most cannot afford it.

Online donaldk

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Re: Are direct LED Walls really that good?
« Reply #9 on: Sat October 28, 2017, 04:44:09 AM »
Isn't reflection part of the concept, the primary surface area being fed by the microled?

Offline w.mayer

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Re: Are direct LED Walls really that good?
« Reply #10 on: Sat October 28, 2017, 05:40:31 AM »
The concept was that only less than 1% of the area of each individual pixel are have the LED Light parts and rest is over 99% black area.

I am talking about the reflections when you look true the display.
There are a air / glass (or may be plastic) surface that had not coated 4% reflections and this create this visible bugs.
When you now coat this surface to reduce it to 0,1 % (and it was not coated before) you have about 40 times less reflections.
If Sony already had some coating on and if so what is not know so far all this is to much technical Infos soo deep that most of the readers will not understand it.
So keep it simple I am sure Sony will work on all this issues as I am sure they know what are the issues and they will try to improve it.

Offline Peter CINERAMAX

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Re: Are direct LED Walls really that good?
« Reply #11 on: Sat October 28, 2017, 07:03:55 AM »
So it is 99% reflective, interessant. good point.

Online donaldk

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Re: Are direct LED Walls really that good?
« Reply #12 on: Sat October 28, 2017, 08:30:09 PM »
Given that the LEDs are fully embedded i would say enligthened is more appropriate.

According to Wolfgang in case of white light the rest of the surface is not hidden behind the light emmited from the microled, showing a black gap. Is this around each pixel (to be expected if this is the effect observed), or between the tiles or the modules?
« Last Edit: Sat October 28, 2017, 08:34:32 PM by donaldk »

Offline Peter CINERAMAX

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Re: Are direct LED Walls really that good? Seams a challenging aspect in Samsung
« Reply #13 on: Fri November 17, 2017, 04:11:33 PM »
I went up to samsung to inspect the 1.5mm pitch system we will be implementing in The San Diego Omni PH.

https://twitter.com/CINERAMAX

Like wolfgang I was surprised to see visible seams, and another artifact which i will cover later.

The visible seams ocurr because of level discrepencies in the Z axis. There is a spring tension screw adjustment that eliminates this, it works because in some parts of the image it was perfectly matched. The thing is that this is an office demo room and people go in and remove tiles and touch them etc.

It is theoretically possible that such seams if we had for example my engineer doing the adjustment and i sitting on the MLP that it could be near perfect.

John is very good like that.



In addition to the same problem that samsung has in common with cledis there is an additional adjustment specific to the surface mounted LED's. Bright lines!

In the pixel rows where the two tiles meet each other there is increased brightness. There is a special calibration process where the brightness of the individual pixel rows is toned down to match the tile.

It works because there were a few tile junctures where it was perfect, but again because of the evrybody touches and plays with it nature of the demo system quite a few bright edges could be found.

ALL IN ALL it will be a lot of work but something having seen some of it working we feel, and also use spcial color analyser with 16 bit video resolution on a per tile basis will also enhance.

So it becomes a perfect challenge for us to bring into our lab and give it a CINERAMAX reference picture quality, we welcome this huge challenge.

Offline Peter CINERAMAX

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Re: Are direct LED Walls really that good? Samsung LED optimalviewing conditions
« Reply #14 on: Sun November 19, 2017, 08:42:59 AM »
The best distance not to realise the pixels or the z-axis misleveled tiles is 12.5 feet. Fantastic image there.

Also do note that this set could be looking at a sunset without it being reflected or affected by the amount of light, so perfect for oceanfront movie watching is you do have the 12.5 feet /3.8 Metres.
« Last Edit: Sun November 19, 2017, 08:46:48 AM by Peter CINERAMAX »


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