SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES

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Offline MrPixels

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« on: Thu August 31, 2017, 09:52:38 PM »

Say hello to SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector... VPL-VW760ES

http://www.pro.sony.eu/pro/lang/en/eu/product/projectors-homecinema/vpl-vw760es/specifications/#specifications

 
And here’s a VIDEO of it at IFA:


 

Linkback: http://dci-forum.com/hi-end-cinema-home/11/sonys-new-ht-4k-laser-projector-vpl-vw760es/2273/
« Last Edit: Thu August 31, 2017, 09:53:18 PM by MrPixels »

Offline ARROW-AV

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SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #1 on: Thu August 31, 2017, 09:59:59 PM »
SONY VPL-VW760ES = JVC DLA-Z1/RS4500 KILLER?

"The Sony VPL-VW760 is the direct attack on the JVC DLA-Z1/RS4500. In fact, Sony's new projector strikes the Japanese competitor in all aspects:

•   It is quieter;
•   It is brighter (with DCI P3 colour space);
•   It offers higher native contrast with better black levels;
•   It has a better image resolution upscaling;
•   It has better dynamic contrast functionality and control;
•   It has higher ANSI contrast;
•   It has better motion performance and accuracy;
•   It has better noise reduction;
•   There’s less light loss through the zoom;
•   All this at half the price !!!

Bad news for JVC! The Z1 has been afflicted by technical problems since launch. Our forecast: The Sony VW760 wins best projector at the price range up to €40,000 unrivalled."

 And to add to this we expect that the HDMI sync times will be less as well!

 ;)
« Last Edit: Thu August 31, 2017, 10:07:01 PM by ARROW-AV »

Offline DCI forum

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #2 on: Fri September 01, 2017, 08:53:54 AM »
Arrow can you confirm Digital Reality Creation/Motion Flow (same thing? as the spec sheets list these on two lines, but can be read as motionflow: DRC) will now work on 4K sources?

Now the question of Sony 15K verses JVC 8K? Less clear cut than the JVC 8K vs the JVC 35K.
« Last Edit: Fri September 01, 2017, 08:55:57 AM by DCI forum »

Offline ARROW-AV

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SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #3 on: Fri September 01, 2017, 11:27:39 AM »
Not yet... as preliminary information only so far...

Offline w.mayer

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #4 on: Fri September 01, 2017, 12:31:51 PM »
SONY VPL-VW760ES = JVC DLA-Z1/RS4500 KILLER?

"The Sony VPL-VW760 is the direct attack on the JVC DLA-Z1/RS4500. In fact, Sony's new projector strikes the Japanese competitor in all aspects:

•   It is quieter;
•   It is brighter (with DCI P3 colour space);
•   It offers higher native contrast with better black levels;
•   It has a better image resolution upscaling;
•   It has better dynamic contrast functionality and control;
•   It has higher ANSI contrast;
•   It has better motion performance and accuracy;
•   It has better noise reduction;
•   There’s less light loss through the zoom;
•   All this at half the price !!!

Bad news for JVC! The Z1 has been afflicted by technical problems since launch. Our forecast: The Sony VW760 wins best projector at the price range up to €40,000 unrivalled."

This is a copy/translation of the writing from Cine4home see here:
http://cine4home.de/die-eneun-sony-vpl-vw-260-vw-360-und-vw-760-im-detaillierten-cine4home-test-ueberblick/

I do not understand why Cine4home always play the Z1 down.
It is a expensive pr. that is not quiet but so far i know it have a very nice picture.
I also not understand why he never talking about the super good optic that the Z1 have.
This Optic is at least as good as the Optic Sony use in the VW 5000.
The Optic in the VW760 ES is very likely the same Sony put in the VW 520/550 and this optic is by far not as good as the JVC Z1 Optic or the Sony VW 5000 Optic.
We all know what a good optic can do compare to a medium good optic and he know it also.
For me it was a huge disapointment the Sony not ask for 3000 or 4000 Euro more and put in there VW760 the good Optic from the 5000.
I know more than 4 people include me (till today) that will now not buy the VW760 as they all like to see the good Optic inside and they like to pay for it.
For me I will be now not upgrade my VW520 in my holiday house as original was planed.
Sony should put the 5000 optic inside and ask for a bit more money.
Sony think they have to have this low price but the missunderstand that the lost more than the gain as many know that the Optic is a too importend part of a Pr. especially for a high end 4K Pr. with good true 4k content.
« Last Edit: Fri September 01, 2017, 12:42:48 PM by w.mayer »

Offline donaldk

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #5 on: Sat September 02, 2017, 07:03:49 AM »
This is Werner's interview with a Sony rep. on the 760:



Can we have bigger windows for youtube video's please?

Offline donaldk

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #6 on: Sat September 02, 2017, 07:05:06 AM »
I saw the spec sheet is linked in the news section. here it is.
« Last Edit: Sat September 02, 2017, 07:20:39 AM by donaldk »

Offline w.mayer

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #7 on: Sat September 02, 2017, 09:52:05 AM »
Nice Video from Thomas

I have contact him today and told him the complain that many people include me are hoping for a better lens in the VW760.
It is very pity to have a such good pr. with only in best case a medium good lens.

Some additional info.
It is more than likely that the native on off cr. level the VW760 have will be compare to the VW5000 higher!
Knowing that depends on the adjustment from the optical zoom it was in the 15.000:1 range with the
VW5000 we may can expect near or over 20.000:1 native cr.
Do not know about Ansi cr. but anything more than what the 5000 have is nice to have.
At least this was the feedback I have hear from IFA Show from different people.

If true WOW the best on of Cr. from a 4K Pr. home cinema pr.in the world!

Offline w.mayer

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #8 on: Sun September 03, 2017, 09:52:39 AM »
New Infos say yes it is true with the cr. increase.

Also may a good news was that i have hear that the Lens get some updates.
So it is still the same lens as they are in the other models but Sony told me that they enhance the quality compare to older one.
Lets see when first sales units hit the marked in October/November 2017.
The one at the IFA show at the moment  as well the one that will be CEDIA in few days is only
a prototype may 80% ready.

Offline ARROW-AV

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SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #9 on: Sun September 03, 2017, 11:50:26 AM »
It's definitely true... Seen it with my own eyes!  ;)  :)

Offline donaldk

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #10 on: Wed September 06, 2017, 12:30:37 AM »

Offline donaldk

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #11 on: Thu September 28, 2017, 11:15:30 AM »
Vincent Teoh got his hands on one at (the) UK distributor, did some measurements:


Offline lygren

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #12 on: Thu September 28, 2017, 03:16:50 PM »
I´m getting my hands on one of these in 10 days too (also the pre-production though), a mighty fine candidate for our soon-to-arrive CR spectroradiometer (+ K10A for calibrations of course, CR will only profile, but perhaps also placed a bit more optimally than Vincent seems to be doing with his K10, although I´m sure that placement was just for the video shoot... :))... ;) Still, 90% of P3 via blue laser and phosphor without the use of a filter is pretty impressive if these measurements turn out to be correct... We also have a DLA-Z1 (RS4500) in the showroom - at least for the time being as it has just been sold to a movie production company - but I´m hoping that my aging memory will at least remember 1 week back in time. I guess the JVC will still be sharper and provide more light in rec709 mode, but I am looking forward to see how the Sony does it in terms of contrast. If contrast is better, it is my clear opinion one can "survive" less light output...
« Last Edit: Thu September 28, 2017, 03:18:18 PM by lygren »

Offline ARROW-AV

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SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #13 on: Thu September 28, 2017, 05:23:35 PM »
Well I'm glad you said it Jon... I made a post about Vincent not profiling his Klein 10-A colorimeter using a spectroradiometer to the particular display and environment, which is necessary because without doing so the colorimeter won't be accurate, but I then deleted it because I didn't want to seem overly critical. But you're right, he didn't do his calibration optimally.

Regarding the contrast performance of the Sony 885/760ES expect a native contrast performance about the same as the Sony 5000ES and JVC RS4500/Z1, namely circa 10,000:1 - 15,000:1 depending on influencing factors. Unfortunately, because Sony has for reasons unknown not included the manual mechanical iris feature of the 1100ES there is no option to close down the iris and boost the laser level and thereby increase the contrast performance. You can do this with the JVC RS4500/Z1 as well. Consequently, the overall contrast and black levels performance of the JVC RS4500/Z1 will be a bit better than the Sony 885/760ES. That said, we can expect the Sony 885/760ES to produce superb performance in other areas which should make up for the comparatively lesser contrast performance.

All of the first generation HT native 4K laser projectors suffer from a reduction in contrast performance as compared with their lamp based equivalents, produced via a combination of 1/4 sized pixels and 4 times the number of pixel borders producing increased light scatter and reduced interpixel contrast performance, exacerbated by a subpptimal light/optical pathway. I'm hoping that we will be seeing an improvement in contrast performance with the 2nd generation of HT native 4K laser projectors, but for the time being we will be seeing lesser contrast and worse black levels performance from these projectors as compared with the likes of the JVC LcOS eShift D-ILA projectors. But like I said the other areas should balance things out such that this projector produces a superb image for the price... Well the UK and European price at least!  ;) 

Also, congrats regarding your purchasing CR spectro... These are amongst the best in the world and it's what we use (CR-300 specifically) so great purchasing choice  :)

 
« Last Edit: Thu September 28, 2017, 05:27:09 PM by ARROW-AV »

Offline donaldk

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #14 on: Thu September 28, 2017, 05:36:13 PM »
I did wonder why Peter had to arrange one being sent across the pond for Barco to have a look, with these being around in Europe;-). I did start to doubt my memory, but you deleted your post.

I am willing to speculate that the laser might bounce back on an mechanical iris? Eventhough it is not as powerful, nor as coherent as an RGB laser source. There may be many more reasons, including keeping it simple, or leaving upgrade path, all the usual speculation;-).

Offline ARROW-AV

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SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #15 on: Thu September 28, 2017, 06:09:04 PM »
The JVC RS4500/Z1 laser projector has a mechanical iris as well as dynamic laser dimming. There is no valid reason for Sony not including it... They simply... Didn't.

Probably the same reason why they didn't include the superior lens and optics of the 1100ES and went with the inferior one from the 675/550ES instead... Namely cost ;)

« Last Edit: Thu September 28, 2017, 06:10:25 PM by ARROW-AV »

Offline w.mayer

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #16 on: Thu September 28, 2017, 07:06:17 PM »
Regarding the contrast performance of the Sony 885/760ES expect a native contrast performance about the same as the Sony 5000ES and JVC RS4500/Z1, namely circa 10,000:1 - 15,000:1

No the Sony 885/760 will have a higher cr. native than the 1000/1100 or the 5000 or the JVC Z1.
I always measure max. zoom so biggest picture iris full open max. lumen out and there
the Sony 1000/1100 had for a very short time 10.000:1 (after it lost it because of the cr. drop )the Sony 5000 had in Rec. 709 13.500:1 and with DCI Color Space 2 about 15.000:1 see also here the first post:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/2365473-testreport-series-v-sony-vw-5000-4k-laser-projector.html
The new Sony 885/760 will have likely 16,5-17.000:1 native.

Offline ARROW-AV

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SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #17 on: Thu September 28, 2017, 08:41:56 PM »
I said circa 10,000:1 - 15,000:1... You say 16,5-17.000:1... So we are agreed then? Circa (= approximately) 10K - 15K = 16.5K - 17K  :)

Where to clarify, specifically I'm referring to the JVC RS4500/Z1 as being circa 10,000:1 and the SONY 5,000 as being circa 15,000:1  ;)

So, you think the SONY 885/760ES will be a smidge higher than this at 16.5K - 17K? Interesting.

I should add that the JVC RS4500/Z1 has a manual mechanical iris that you can close down and increase the laser level to boost native on/off contrast in addition to applying dynamic contrast functionality via dynamic laser dimming. Of course if you have a giant size screen you won't have enough light output headroom to make use of this feature without overly dimming the whole image, but with typical HT screen sizes you will be able to achieve higher contrast and better blacks as compared with the SONY 885/760ES, which because it doesn't have a manual mechanical iris you can't do this unfortunately, so the contrast ratio will always be the same; you can't increase it like you can with the JVC. Also, so far calibrated light output with the Sony 885/760ES has been measured at 1,600 / 1,800 lumens which is OK for SDR on typical HT sized projection screens but it may struggle to display HDR optimally.

With respect to the SONY 1100ES this has a manual mechanical iris feature that you can close down to boost the native contrast, where I note that you keep the iris fully open, but what you can't do is what you can do with the JVC RS4500/Z1 namely close down the manual iris and in addition to this apply dynamic contrast functionality... So it's either manual iris or dynamic contrast, you can't do both, hence the limited contrast comparatively speaking... And, as you yourself know, panel degradation with respect to the 1100ES sucks.  >:(

We have 5 of the SONY 885/760ES on order with expected delivery in only a couple of weeks time so we'll take a load of measurements... As will others, your good self included I assume?  ;)

« Last Edit: Thu September 28, 2017, 09:25:07 PM by ARROW-AV »

Offline w.mayer

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #18 on: Fri September 29, 2017, 06:00:30 AM »
Yes as Sony say if I remember right about 15% native increase in on off cr. will be there.
I think they compare it to the existing VW550 that measured in the way I describe most in the 15.000:1 cr. range.
So 15%+ will be in the 17.000:1 range.

Perfect when you have 5 on pre oder as you than can see not only how much cr. this 5 pieces vary
but more impotent for me how the optic will looks and vary.
This can clear als if it is true that Sony improve the optic performance compare to older optics this type or not.

I have my holiday house VW520 back to Germany and have it here for a "fair" compare to the new Sony.
The Barco Thor will be a unfair compare but quiet interesting :)
« Last Edit: Fri September 29, 2017, 06:07:50 AM by w.mayer »

Offline lygren

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #19 on: Fri September 29, 2017, 03:30:48 PM »
...as a "heads up", we measured 20.000:1 (!!!!) native on the first VW260 we calibrated, and the second ticked in at 10.000:1 (exact same zoom, fully D65 corrected @ Klein K10A (colorspace, gamma and greyscale), burned 50 hours prior to calibration, THX / ISF calibrator and so on...)...... We have 5 or so more to go from the initial batch, but hopefully these rather extreme initial differences will not be the case for the VW760... ;)

Offline w.mayer

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #20 on: Sun October 01, 2017, 10:46:40 AM »
I have never hear about such a big difference in cr. never ever.

I guess something was not right from the Pr. itself or the measurement as difference should be in the +-15% range but not 100% more or less!

Offline lygren

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #21 on: Sun October 01, 2017, 12:05:51 PM »
Completely agree, so we have placed the 10K:1 unit aside for the time being to see what could have caused this... I´ll ask the calibrator what the results were on the remainder shortly...!

As for contrast differences, since we´re calibrating several hundred projectors each year being the Norwegian JVC distributor and also exclusive dealer for Sonys 4K projectors, we do have a lot of data in such regards. I agree that 10-20% is more normal, 10K:1 on one unit and 20K:1 on the next is rarely the case unless there are defectives... I guess I probably should have waited shouting "wolf" though, so please disregard this for now and I´ll rather revert when I have more data available. :)

Offline lygren

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #22 on: Thu October 12, 2017, 05:52:55 PM »
So, the 20K:1 unit seems to be a "golden sample" for sure, the other six 260´s (285) we have calibrated has ended up between 12-14K1. The two 360´s (385s) we have calibrated thus far ended up at about 22K:1.

The 760 we installed was the preproduction one, and as such I will not post any contrast measurements for it. What I CAN say is that the previous guys that had this projector - not sure who - most certainly did not have the equipment needed to calibrate lasers at their calibrations were really way off. Still, using our new CR spectro profiling the K10A I have to say it did look quite nice. Lens had some issues, so not razor sharp as was the case for the 260 and 360, but still quite promising for the final version...

Offline ARROW-AV

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SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #23 on: Fri October 13, 2017, 02:08:14 AM »

Nice one Jon! Well that's a reason to find the extra cash to buy a 360/385 as compared with a 260/285 right there. That's a pretty sizeable difference in native contrast performance between the two projectors.

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES


I believe that was a certain somebody who used a Klein 10A without profiling it first using a quality spectro like you have there, which kinda confirms what we already know, namely that it's fundamentally important to do so or else your calibration will be all out of whack.

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Last Edit: Fri October 13, 2017, 03:39:49 AM by ARROW-AV »

Offline lygren

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #24 on: Fri October 13, 2017, 02:14:41 AM »
On another note, in terms of the 260/360, but probably the 760 as well; they NEED calibration. For some reason - perhaps as a counter measure in terms of panels "settling"??, Sony´s gamma is not tracking according to what it is placed at. For example; setting the gamma at 2.2 will result in 2.6... In addition, they are quite off on both colour space and greyscale... So, of any projector series ever "before and after" results was simply stunning - but at first glance - without calibration that is - these Sonys might not look very impressive (black crushes, skin tones off ++).

Offline ARROW-AV

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SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #25 on: Fri October 13, 2017, 03:48:14 AM »
Wow, it's very common for the out-of-the-box gamma to be tracking about two points out, but 2.6 when set to 2.2? Yikes...  :o

I guess that's +1 for the JVCs; and all the more reason why if you go Sony you really need it calibrated... The same typically applies to Sony's TVs, the out-of-the-box settings are abysmal, especially regarding grayscale  ;)

But with both Sony projectors and TVs post-calibration the performance is excellent  :)
« Last Edit: Fri October 13, 2017, 03:49:56 AM by ARROW-AV »

Offline lygren

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #26 on: Fri October 13, 2017, 03:53:07 AM »
Before and after for a VW285 attached, and most of them track gamma similarly "out-of-the-box" (with that heavy S-curve)... But after calibration, completely agreed, looks great...
« Last Edit: Fri October 13, 2017, 03:54:03 AM by lygren »

Offline lygren

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #27 on: Fri October 13, 2017, 03:56:47 AM »
...and we always run the projectors 40-50 hours prior to calibrating them by the way (we pre-calibrate most projectors that is shipped out from our distribution central in a custom build "calibration simulator" as traveling the countryside in Norway is quite the feat... ;))...

Offline lygren

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #28 on: Fri October 13, 2017, 04:19:58 AM »
...and here are some of the charts from the 760, which was "calibrated" at another launch event somewhere using gear that obviously did not work!