SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES Author Topic: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES  (Read 2939 times)

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Offline ARROW-AV

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SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #13 on: Thu September 28, 2017, 05:23:35 PM »
Well I'm glad you said it Jon... I made a post about Vincent not profiling his Klein 10-A colorimeter using a spectroradiometer to the particular display and environment, which is necessary because without doing so the colorimeter won't be accurate, but I then deleted it because I didn't want to seem overly critical. But you're right, he didn't do his calibration optimally.

Regarding the contrast performance of the Sony 885/760ES expect a native contrast performance about the same as the Sony 5000ES and JVC RS4500/Z1, namely circa 10,000:1 - 15,000:1 depending on influencing factors. Unfortunately, because Sony has for reasons unknown not included the manual mechanical iris feature of the 1100ES there is no option to close down the iris and boost the laser level and thereby increase the contrast performance. You can do this with the JVC RS4500/Z1 as well. Consequently, the overall contrast and black levels performance of the JVC RS4500/Z1 will be a bit better than the Sony 885/760ES. That said, we can expect the Sony 885/760ES to produce superb performance in other areas which should make up for the comparatively lesser contrast performance.

All of the first generation HT native 4K laser projectors suffer from a reduction in contrast performance as compared with their lamp based equivalents, produced via a combination of 1/4 sized pixels and 4 times the number of pixel borders producing increased light scatter and reduced interpixel contrast performance, exacerbated by a subpptimal light/optical pathway. I'm hoping that we will be seeing an improvement in contrast performance with the 2nd generation of HT native 4K laser projectors, but for the time being we will be seeing lesser contrast and worse black levels performance from these projectors as compared with the likes of the JVC LcOS eShift D-ILA projectors. But like I said the other areas should balance things out such that this projector produces a superb image for the price... Well the UK and European price at least!  ;) 

Also, congrats regarding your purchasing CR spectro... These are amongst the best in the world and it's what we use (CR-300 specifically) so great purchasing choice  :)

 
« Last Edit: Thu September 28, 2017, 05:27:09 PM by ARROW-AV »

Offline donaldk

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #14 on: Thu September 28, 2017, 05:36:13 PM »
I did wonder why Peter had to arrange one being sent across the pond for Barco to have a look, with these being around in Europe;-). I did start to doubt my memory, but you deleted your post.

I am willing to speculate that the laser might bounce back on an mechanical iris? Eventhough it is not as powerful, nor as coherent as an RGB laser source. There may be many more reasons, including keeping it simple, or leaving upgrade path, all the usual speculation;-).

Offline ARROW-AV

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SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #15 on: Thu September 28, 2017, 06:09:04 PM »
The JVC RS4500/Z1 laser projector has a mechanical iris as well as dynamic laser dimming. There is no valid reason for Sony not including it... They simply... Didn't.

Probably the same reason why they didn't include the superior lens and optics of the 1100ES and went with the inferior one from the 675/550ES instead... Namely cost ;)

« Last Edit: Thu September 28, 2017, 06:10:25 PM by ARROW-AV »

Offline w.mayer

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #16 on: Thu September 28, 2017, 07:06:17 PM »
Regarding the contrast performance of the Sony 885/760ES expect a native contrast performance about the same as the Sony 5000ES and JVC RS4500/Z1, namely circa 10,000:1 - 15,000:1

No the Sony 885/760 will have a higher cr. native than the 1000/1100 or the 5000 or the JVC Z1.
I always measure max. zoom so biggest picture iris full open max. lumen out and there
the Sony 1000/1100 had for a very short time 10.000:1 (after it lost it because of the cr. drop )the Sony 5000 had in Rec. 709 13.500:1 and with DCI Color Space 2 about 15.000:1 see also here the first post:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/2365473-testreport-series-v-sony-vw-5000-4k-laser-projector.html
The new Sony 885/760 will have likely 16,5-17.000:1 native.

Offline ARROW-AV

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SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #17 on: Thu September 28, 2017, 08:41:56 PM »
I said circa 10,000:1 - 15,000:1... You say 16,5-17.000:1... So we are agreed then? Circa (= approximately) 10K - 15K = 16.5K - 17K  :)

Where to clarify, specifically I'm referring to the JVC RS4500/Z1 as being circa 10,000:1 and the SONY 5,000 as being circa 15,000:1  ;)

So, you think the SONY 885/760ES will be a smidge higher than this at 16.5K - 17K? Interesting.

I should add that the JVC RS4500/Z1 has a manual mechanical iris that you can close down and increase the laser level to boost native on/off contrast in addition to applying dynamic contrast functionality via dynamic laser dimming. Of course if you have a giant size screen you won't have enough light output headroom to make use of this feature without overly dimming the whole image, but with typical HT screen sizes you will be able to achieve higher contrast and better blacks as compared with the SONY 885/760ES, which because it doesn't have a manual mechanical iris you can't do this unfortunately, so the contrast ratio will always be the same; you can't increase it like you can with the JVC. Also, so far calibrated light output with the Sony 885/760ES has been measured at 1,600 / 1,800 lumens which is OK for SDR on typical HT sized projection screens but it may struggle to display HDR optimally.

With respect to the SONY 1100ES this has a manual mechanical iris feature that you can close down to boost the native contrast, where I note that you keep the iris fully open, but what you can't do is what you can do with the JVC RS4500/Z1 namely close down the manual iris and in addition to this apply dynamic contrast functionality... So it's either manual iris or dynamic contrast, you can't do both, hence the limited contrast comparatively speaking... And, as you yourself know, panel degradation with respect to the 1100ES sucks.  >:(

We have 5 of the SONY 885/760ES on order with expected delivery in only a couple of weeks time so we'll take a load of measurements... As will others, your good self included I assume?  ;)

« Last Edit: Thu September 28, 2017, 09:25:07 PM by ARROW-AV »

Offline w.mayer

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #18 on: Fri September 29, 2017, 06:00:30 AM »
Yes as Sony say if I remember right about 15% native increase in on off cr. will be there.
I think they compare it to the existing VW550 that measured in the way I describe most in the 15.000:1 cr. range.
So 15%+ will be in the 17.000:1 range.

Perfect when you have 5 on pre oder as you than can see not only how much cr. this 5 pieces vary
but more impotent for me how the optic will looks and vary.
This can clear als if it is true that Sony improve the optic performance compare to older optics this type or not.

I have my holiday house VW520 back to Germany and have it here for a "fair" compare to the new Sony.
The Barco Thor will be a unfair compare but quiet interesting :)
« Last Edit: Fri September 29, 2017, 06:07:50 AM by w.mayer »

Offline lygren

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #19 on: Fri September 29, 2017, 03:30:48 PM »
...as a "heads up", we measured 20.000:1 (!!!!) native on the first VW260 we calibrated, and the second ticked in at 10.000:1 (exact same zoom, fully D65 corrected @ Klein K10A (colorspace, gamma and greyscale), burned 50 hours prior to calibration, THX / ISF calibrator and so on...)...... We have 5 or so more to go from the initial batch, but hopefully these rather extreme initial differences will not be the case for the VW760... ;)

Offline w.mayer

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #20 on: Sun October 01, 2017, 10:46:40 AM »
I have never hear about such a big difference in cr. never ever.

I guess something was not right from the Pr. itself or the measurement as difference should be in the +-15% range but not 100% more or less!

Offline lygren

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #21 on: Sun October 01, 2017, 12:05:51 PM »
Completely agree, so we have placed the 10K:1 unit aside for the time being to see what could have caused this... I´ll ask the calibrator what the results were on the remainder shortly...!

As for contrast differences, since we´re calibrating several hundred projectors each year being the Norwegian JVC distributor and also exclusive dealer for Sonys 4K projectors, we do have a lot of data in such regards. I agree that 10-20% is more normal, 10K:1 on one unit and 20K:1 on the next is rarely the case unless there are defectives... I guess I probably should have waited shouting "wolf" though, so please disregard this for now and I´ll rather revert when I have more data available. :)

Offline lygren

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #22 on: Thu October 12, 2017, 05:52:55 PM »
So, the 20K:1 unit seems to be a "golden sample" for sure, the other six 260´s (285) we have calibrated has ended up between 12-14K1. The two 360´s (385s) we have calibrated thus far ended up at about 22K:1.

The 760 we installed was the preproduction one, and as such I will not post any contrast measurements for it. What I CAN say is that the previous guys that had this projector - not sure who - most certainly did not have the equipment needed to calibrate lasers at their calibrations were really way off. Still, using our new CR spectro profiling the K10A I have to say it did look quite nice. Lens had some issues, so not razor sharp as was the case for the 260 and 360, but still quite promising for the final version...

Offline ARROW-AV

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SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #23 on: Fri October 13, 2017, 02:08:14 AM »

Nice one Jon! Well that's a reason to find the extra cash to buy a 360/385 as compared with a 260/285 right there. That's a pretty sizeable difference in native contrast performance between the two projectors.

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES


I believe that was a certain somebody who used a Klein 10A without profiling it first using a quality spectro like you have there, which kinda confirms what we already know, namely that it's fundamentally important to do so or else your calibration will be all out of whack.

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Last Edit: Fri October 13, 2017, 03:39:49 AM by ARROW-AV »

Offline ARROW-AV

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Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #24 on: Fri October 13, 2017, 03:48:14 AM »
Wow, it's very common for the out-of-the-box gamma to be tracking about two points out, but 2.6 when set to 2.2? Yikes...  :o

I guess that's +1 for the JVCs; and all the more reason why if you go Sony you really need it calibrated... The same typically applies to Sony's TVs, the out-of-the-box settings are abysmal, especially regarding grayscale  ;)

But with both Sony projectors and TVs post-calibration the performance is excellent  :)
« Last Edit: Fri October 13, 2017, 03:49:56 AM by ARROW-AV »

Offline lygren

SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
Re: SONY's new HT 4K Laser Projector VPL-VW760ES
« Reply #25 on: Fri October 13, 2017, 03:53:07 AM »
Before and after for a VW285 attached, and most of them track gamma similarly "out-of-the-box" (with that heavy S-curve)... But after calibration, completely agreed, looks great...
« Last Edit: Fri October 13, 2017, 03:54:03 AM by lygren »