Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?

Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World? Author Topic: Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?  (Read 12681 times)

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Offline w.mayer

Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
Re: Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
« Reply #143 on: Tue December 19, 2017, 05:24:44 AM »
I create today 2 new macros in the Barco Thor.

This allows me to easy switch between the color calibrated version and the non-color calibrated version to so see if there is further room for  cr. enhancement without destroy
the super perfect color the Barco show.
Just remember the Barco Thor can do not 90% or 95% DCI color it can do at full light output 100% DCI color with 6 P laser!
Even more if you switch 3 from 6 laser to off you can do 100% Rec. 2020 color but this kills 50% of the lumen and enhance speckling a bit.
Still there is not any Projector beside the Barco 6P Laser that can do this in combination with a high contrast number.

I have measured with different test pattern and video content "Passengers UHD Disc" between color correction on and no color correction 
with surprising numbers.

At 62% laser diming "I use normally for all scope 2D content" corrected color lumen is "ONLY 4,35% less" compare to the non-corrected color!
At 100% laser the difference between corrected color to non-corrected color is "ONLY 2,73%"!
Also color looks very similar only a tick more green was there in the non-corrected color.

Anyway the 4,35% more lumen should give me about 228:1 more cr. so now in theory I should measure not 5229:1 I should measure 5457:1 (screen average see my hand drawing).
Sure you not can see this around 4.5% more cr. but may I feel better☺!

So where this huge difference in the 17% range between the internal test patter “12 bit full white uncorrected” and UHD Material (color correction on and off) are coming from???
Are there may be some room somewhere in the Barco Settings to further enhance the cr. without give best color up?

Offline w.mayer

Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
Re: Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
« Reply #144 on: Tue December 19, 2017, 06:58:16 AM »
I found lately a way to increase the Barco Thor cr. to over 6000:1 with “actual UHD HDR Content” without ruin the good color the Barco do.

All this is very complex and I do not have the time to going into details here so I just will post some basics.

Oppo UHD Player outputs brightness and cr. is to low need to increase!
This boost “if the Barco was right configured” cr. from before 2985:1 to 5229:1!

Barco need for this enhanced Oppo output new HDR and many other adjustments that match with the
NIT clipping point and other things!
I let clip it at the moment at 400 nit till I found some better adjustments.

With some other tricks in the Barco Thor I found now up to 6304:1 cr.
but picture looks color wise not nice with too much green inside.
But I found a way that take care about all this.
This costs only 4,5% lumen and cr.!

So at the end with a good color and a perfect uniformity I end up with 6020:1 cr. (screen average center left right) during playback a UHD HDR 4K Disc and not on test pattern.
A nice increase in cr. compare to the about half I saw before the Oppo adjustment and the Barco improvement.


Offline w.mayer

Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
Re: Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
« Reply #145 on: Sat December 23, 2017, 06:59:01 AM »
As I have report my Crestron System is now ready but one thing was not comfortable.

The Barco Thor had as most other Projectors just 2 HDMI 2.0 Inputs.
Input A was used from the Marantz Receiver where different inputs are connected like STB and Videocam and more.
Input B was used from the Oppo UHD Player to playback all disc formats.

So I need to disconnect always this 2 HDMI cables when I like to see my 4K 3D still pictures from my 4K 3D computer.
Then 2 HDMI computer outputs left and right connect to the Barco.
After I have to disconnect it and put the HDMI cable from Marantz and Oppo Player back.
Not a nice way!

This is why I order a HDMI Matirx Switcher.
This comes 2 days ago and I try it.
Result you can see here in the pictures.
When the Matrix is in-between picture show a lot of banding not only the UHD 4K 60P HDR version also the
UHD 4K 24P HDR version show this banding!
"Please note that you need at least for the Sony Logo the full resolution picture to see the banding so click on it."
The Sony VW760 show the same banding but there you need to switch the "Smooth Graduation" to off as this filters the Banding that the Sony sometimes show out.
The Barco Thor do not have such a filter as it show not any Banding at all.

Sad as I had hope that it will be working but one more time a good sample that the 18GB do not say if the unit can do a bug free picture.

I hope that they can fix this as it is not so nice to always disconnect and connect  this 2 HDMI cables to just see some
4K3D Stills from my computer.
« Last Edit: Sat December 23, 2017, 07:05:27 AM by w.mayer »

Offline donaldk

Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
Re: Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
« Reply #146 on: Sat December 23, 2017, 07:24:38 AM »
Is this the 8 Bit limit in the switcher?

Offline w.mayer

Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
Re: Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
« Reply #147 on: Sat December 23, 2017, 07:28:23 AM »
No Spec. wise looks all ok but as i say this specs not say if it really works without bugs.

Offline w.mayer

Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
Re: Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
« Reply #148 on: Mon December 25, 2017, 04:55:42 PM »
There is lately much discussion at what nit level a projection system should clip with HDR UHD Discs.

In general there is not an easy answer for this as many factors have an influence on this.
-Lumen projector can do.
-Cr. this pr. have
-What screen is used
-What disc is playing see down..
Any many more….

Our SDR system we are all know clip at 100 nits.
Our HDR are clip depends on how the disc was mastered.
Some clip at 1000 nits some at 2000 and some at 4000 nits and Dolby Vision clips at 10.000 nits!

We have some high end displays that can do 1000 nits or near 2000 nits but there is that not any projector
that really have the light ouput to project very high HDR nit numbers first as the Pr. is not bright enough second if you for sample stack 2 projectors to double the light output you running into other problems like aliment and other things.

But let’s say that you can match two 4K pr. relatively good then there is another problem.
When you let clip at a very high number let’s say 2000 nits the picture becomes very dim.
To enhance lumen you stack 2 projectors but then your picture becomes brighter what is generally a good thing but then you easy can ruin the cr. and black looks not black anymore.

I run my Barco at about 6200 Lumen output for my 7 meter scope screen.
This give me about 21 ftl and this looks very bright at this huge screen.
I do not like it brighter.
Why?
I setup my system to let it clip at between 400 and 600 nits depends on the movie.
So my Barco have about 12.000 lumen at about 6300:1 cr. see my last posts.
So I easy can double the light output and when you increase clipping point to let’s say 1000 nits it looks not so good as then the black is not anymore black.

In the past with a Sony 5000 that had about good double the on off cr. the Barco have it is may possible to clip a bit higher but all my practice I have with HDR tells
me to let clip it at 500 nit not more otherwise you can easy ruin your black level possible ansi cr. as well.
To me 5 times more dynamic range is a visible step up but as all this is a compromise and depends on the taste the user like it.
So if you can give up good blacks yes than you can gain more dynamic range so it is really depends on the movie itself a bit if it was a very dark movie may you let it clip at
500 nits if it was a very bright movie with less dark sequences inside may you let it clip at 1000 nits.
Funny was that Barco comes to exactly the same numbers without talking with me about it!

This discussion will be possible over soon as some new technology from different manufactures will be coming in the next years that will solve this kind of problem and give us HDR
how we like it very bright and in combination with a good black level.

Offline donaldk

Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
Re: Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
« Reply #149 on: Mon December 25, 2017, 05:20:57 PM »
Practically SDR TVs have been offering in the 300 nits range for years. The electronics stretched the properly graded content to match this situation. Of course the reds and most of all the blues are less strong than they wouod be when usiing an HDR grade. So, clipping in TVs has been well above 100 nits for years.

The SuperKontrast used cusom gamma curves. The Sony 760/JVC(Z1 and lamp units) owners/calibrators are now implementing custom curves programmed into the projectors using a new piece of software, plus the Projectors'software that allowloading of alternative curves. Before that there was the AV TOP software from germany that allowed for dynamic HDR using the HD Fury Integral and later controllable convertors. That same software also provides an interface for Calman to offer autocalibration by controlling the projector through the software.

So, is using other curves the next step to retain black performance with higher peak white?
« Last Edit: Mon December 25, 2017, 05:45:44 PM by donaldk »

Offline w.mayer

Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
Re: Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
« Reply #150 on: Tue December 26, 2017, 11:21:45 AM »
I talking about clipping point from the source not how many nit a display or Projector can do.

As far as I know all non HDR Content for Cinemas a mastered at 100 nits or below.

I know there are since years TVs out that can display more than 100 nits but this is not my point my point is that all non HDR Content so far are mastered for 100 nit.
So all what we seeing from TV or 2K BD is100 nit as the Studios not made for TV or BD a separat Master for home they use the Master that was made for Cinema.
Normally BD 2K 2D and 3D with SDR are have "Souce wise"  clipping point at 100 nit.

Offline donaldk

Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
Re: Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
« Reply #151 on: Tue December 26, 2017, 02:38:34 PM »
My point was the display stretched the dynamic range of the content even with SDR, some just straightforward, others through complicated remapping or other processing, so if the standard curve does not work for our display, we might consider remapping HDR to the display.

Offline w.mayer

Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
Re: Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
« Reply #152 on: Sat January 13, 2018, 11:04:11 AM »
Netflix with the Barco Thor!

Thanks to the new Internet with 50MB and soon later 100 MB download speed we can watch Netflix in 4K without
any problem.

Sad was that the Oppo UHD Player do not have any Netfilx support anymore so I order Apple TV to watch 4K content from Netflix.
I have try Netflix with Apple TV but it not works.
The box try always to sale me via ITunes Netflix but I am already a Netflix user so don’t know what went wrong hope Apple Support can help me here.
Netflix Support yesterday after 1 hour give up on it as they say it is likely an Apple TV issue.
So I use my Panasonic UHD Player to see Netflix 4K material.
It runs without any problem and picture quality was nice.

Than later today thanks to a very nice and friendly guy from the Apple support that I get on the phone after 15 min. waiting time I figure out together with him
what went wrong and we can fix all this so Netflix is running at the Apple 4k TV as well and on top I have ITunes Movies for streaming or download that I will try soon.

I will compare some Reference Picture Quality UHD Disc like the last Transformers Movie to the ITunes Movie Quality and will report about it how ITunes Quality match the UHD Disc Quality.


Offline w.mayer

Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
Re: Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
« Reply #153 on: Sat January 13, 2018, 05:31:41 PM »
Here are 2 true screen shots in 4k resolution from the last Transformers Movie.

First one is Oppo UHD Player Secound is from ITunes.

Forget the overview!
To see the real difference you need to copy each picture in the full 4K resolution I have post it and put it in a folder and use a 4K display or a good 4K Pr. and do not sit more than one time the screen wide back.

Live the difference is may a little bigger than this 2 pictures tells you.
I try my best with the best camera in 8K (down to 4K to post) with the best optic money can buy.

If you do this you can see that UHD Disc is still the King in Picture Qualtiy.
It show the more details the slightliy better color and more texture but ITunes is still good.

If you sit more than 1.5 times the screen wide back you may can not see anything much difference at all.
So I will may will use from time to time ITunes for some movies as quality is for such a service very good
and its very cheap and easy.

Will test when i found some good things to compare some other non Dolby Vision Titels and also will check
UHD Disc VS Netflix.
Lets see how this compare will looks but as Netflix have not so much UHD Movies that I have on UHD Disc it can take some time.
I expect not a too much different outcome for this test and thing it will be likely similar to the ITunes VS UHD Disc Test I did today.

Please note that some colorful areas are a moire effect from Pixels from the Canon 5DSR 50MP Camera and the Picture of the screen.
So this is not in the pictures visible only when shot some pictures like this it can pop up.
And this show also very clear how dam sharp any single pixel the Barco Thor can project!
You can read here details about it here:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9-Effekt
« Last Edit: Sat January 13, 2018, 05:43:26 PM by w.mayer »

Offline w.mayer

Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
Re: Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
« Reply #154 on: Sun January 14, 2018, 05:35:45 PM »
We watch tonight a older Nolen Movie "The Prestige" from the Germany Nolen UHD Box.

I have not seen this movie so far.
It was a very good movie with a good picture quality in general but some seq. not looks so nice.

Very sad again the Oppo UHD Player stop playback after around 105 min.
That was this time not very nice as it comes at a part from the Movie that take our attention and we are out of the movie for some time.
Very bad not good.
Its my secound Oppo UHD Player that show this kind of bug during a UHD Playback.
Some times it just stop for few secound some times it stop for long time and you need to shut down the Oppo and start again.
I can not live with this bug that I have seen so many times now.
If Oppo can not solve this problem I will return to the Panasonic UB 900 that had not a single time any problem at all.

Offline MrPixels

Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
Re: Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?
« Reply #155 on: Sun January 14, 2018, 06:03:37 PM »
I use the Panasonic exclusive, the tone mapping comes in handy. For the price and reputation of the OPPO I am surprised at its lack of tone mapping.